Is it just me…
Let me interject my disclaimer right now for all of you that are swooning at the thought that I agree with the polygamists. I think polygamy is an abomination before a holy God. I think these poor people are deceived and they do not know the Lord and His Word. I think that marrying off children to old men is disgusting and vile. I do not think for one minute that the things going on that we know for sure (polygamy) and/or the things alleged to be going on (statutory rape and child abuse) are right, proper or decent. They are not.
There. Now we are all on the same page.
But, by the same token, when the government gets involved in deciding what is ‘decent’ for our children, we are starting that perilous ride down the slippery slope. What happens when the government decides that homeschooling is “child abuse”? What happens when the government decides that my church is “illegal”? What happens when the convoy shows up at my door to cart off my children along with those of all my neighbors? I don’t like it. Not one bit. The state had no authority to remove every child from those parents. They just didn’t. And, I think the state of Texas is doing harm to those children… harm that in my mind should be considered child abuse.
How in the world is the state going to properly care for all those children? You know as well as I do that they can’t. They’ve been in a coliseum for two weeks! What kind of care is that? Who is seeing about 437 babies in a coliseum? And, not allowing the mothers to stay with the children. That is despicable! I am so distressed for those mothers and what they are going through. It’s unthinkable.
Our tax dollars at work, my friends.
Yes, I’m bothered. Bothered that something wasn’t done before now.
peace
fm
I’m sorry, FM. I’m not sure I understand. So, you support the unlawful search and seizure of children by authorities? The scary part about supporting the dissolution of freedom of religion and the rights of parents is that you could be next. I could be next. We could all be next. That is a little unnerving to me. We have to protect the rights of every American even if those Americans are unpopular.
I’ll be more clear. Yes, I support the lawful rescue of children by legal authorities acting on behalf of the citizens in the absence of responsible parents. The issue is abuse not church and state no less than the concern regarding the unlawful actions of some priests and the subsequent abuse witnessed in another religion. The parent’s right to sexually abuse their children is not recognized by any law in any state. It is more unnerving to imagine support that would promote such a right. Supporting individual rights has never and should never be equated with supporting child abuse.
peace
fm
Oh, you have evidence of such abuse? You might want to inform the Texas authorities because they have none!
Let me be perfectly clear in saying that IF there has been child abuse, sexual abuse, marrying off children to old men and any or all of the ALLEGED activities that these people have been accused of doing, then by all means save the children from those situations.
BUT, and this is a big but, do you really believe that EACH AND EVERY one of those 400+ (the number changes every day) children were abused by their parents in one way or another? Do you really believe that the Texas authorities had EVIDENCE that each and every one of those children were abused in one way or another? Or do you understand that because of a prank phone call the authorities issued a sweeping search and seizure of people’s homes and stole their children to sort out the ‘whats’ and ‘where fors’ later. Do we really want our government stealing our children first and asking questions later?
Again I say that civil liberties must be protected even if the victims are unsavory and we don’t like their religion.
In fact, I’ve been thinking that the Amish better feel very blessed not to live in the state of Texas. I’m sure one prank phone call and the authorities could descend on them like a hoard of locusts too. You know they marry pretty young and don’t educate their children past the 8th grade.
We can’t persecute people because of their religion! Freedom of religion, tolerance (which is a term everyone likes to banter around… until it applies to polygamists), civil liberty and the rights of parents. These are fundemental rights that must be staunchly defended.
By the way, the state officials did not shut down the Catholic church even during pretty pervasive priestly abuse. They didn’t haul every Catholic priest to jail to determine at a later time if there was actual evidence against each priest. They didn’t assume guilt on every leader in the Catholic church because of the crimes of the guilty. And, let me point out, the authorities have real evidence of crimes in those cases. None of the allegations against priests hinged on a prank phone call. If you like this modis operandi, that would be the action you would call down on all Catholic leaders.
It may be proven that each and every child in that compound has been abused in every possible way abuse can happen. The parents may be proven to be stark raving guilty and live out the rest of their natural lives in jail. That will still not absolve the Texas authorities from unlawfully circumventing these people’s constitutional rights. The ends never justify the means.
I must admit that I’m a ‘less is more’ when it comes to government. I am a constitutionalist through and through. So, when a case like this comes up when the government tosses the constitution to the wind and throws themselves smack in the middle of people’s lives, it gets my dander up! And, I’m known to have passionate opinions when my dander is up! ~wink~
Thanks for your comments, Ford! Great discussion!
I totally get where you are coming from, Lady Why. I also get where Ford is coming from. Living here in Texas, I find myself torn between both opinions.
If a parent is incompetent based on their own ignorance, as I believe the case is here, how far does the state need to go in protecting the children? Several of these mothers were willing to leave the compound in order to be with their kids. Shouldn’t there be some sort of an opportunity for them to be reunited AND re-educated about parenting and morality?
I believe that the polygamist compounds carry with them the burden of molestation allegations for good reason. So many are riddled with it. But this blanketed assault on so many strikes me as a very scary solution.
I don’t think your correlation to a possible future attack on home schoolers in the same vein is far fetched.
I agree with Lady Why 100%. The hypocrisy here is overwhelming. In most states, children are allowed access to birth control and even abortions wothout the knowledge of their parents. Sex ed curriculums encourage our children to engage in illicit sex at the earliest possible age, so long as they do so with each other, producing children who then become dependent on the state to provide their basic necessities. According to what I have read, the rate of teen pregnancy at this compound wasn’t any greater than what you might find in any American town with an equal number of people. Are the states rounding up the children who come from the homes of irresponsible parents? No.
Factor in that these children were rounded up en masse(not on an individual basis), based on a bogus anonymous tip, with no evidence to back up the claim, this action was not justified. I abhor the theology of these people, but I don’t think that running rough shod over their constituional rights is the right way to go. There are people who loathe our adherence to the Bible, and think that my “narrow-minded” views are harmful to my children. Should they be able to come into my home and round up my kids?
This is definitely a difficult subject. While my heart breaks for the hundreds of children caught up in this mess, I have to admit that the fact that the families’ constitutional rights have been violated should make every American sit up and take notice.
Hi Amy,
I agree the poor parents here are ignorant and raising their children in, what I consider, a false doctrine. But, so are a lot of other parents in so-called religions. We just can’t take people’s children away because the parents are ignorant. In fact, if that’s the standard, I have a long list of people that should lose their children. Ha!
And, being one that is ‘outside the fray’ on many mainstream issues, this action hits very close to home. I see clearly how crossing this line leads to a dangerous precedent that could be applied to homeschoolers, Reformed Baptists, quiverfull families, organic foodies, non-television watchers, Bible believing parents… all, of which, applies to me. (which I’m sure you guessed!) So, I’m particularly sensitive to the plight of these people because they are being persecuted for their differences, not for any actual evidence of any crimes.
Terry,
Thank you for your comments! You are right on the money with the hypocrisy! I’m amazed that everyone is so ‘outraged’ over the teen pregnancies and that the teen pregnancies make the parents unfit. I don’t see the teen pregnancy of Jamie Lynn Spears treated with the same shock and horror. In fact, in my local grocery store, the magazines are all ‘a twitter’ glorifying her situation. We pass out birth control to 6th graders and glorify all sorts of perverse behavior. Societal hypocrisy en masse! I’m just saying.
Great discussion!